“A Complete Unknown” is a departure for Edward Norton, despite the fact that he’s fast to level out he’s performed kind-hearted souls earlier than — together with, surprisingly, referencing Smoochy the Rhino from “Death to Smoochy,” an early, sudden, comedic zag on this interview from Norton whereas discussing his buzzed-about efficiency as folks legend Pete Seeger.
And he’s proper. He has performed, as he places it, “respectable individuals” — he’s most undoubtedly not all the time in that wiseacre vibe of Worm in “Rounders” or flirting with the emotional rage and distress of Monty in Spike Lee’s “twenty fifth Hour.” But his interpretation of Pete Seeger is exclusive in that he performs him with this true north earnestness … however with an undercut of passive aggressiveness that comes biting via when Timotheé Chalamet’s Bob Dylan does one thing Pete doesn’t see eye to eye with. This occurs very often through the occasions of “A Complete Unknown.” (Things like, you recognize, enjoying an electrical guitar at a folks competition. Pete Seeger did not like that.)
In “A Complete Unknown,” director James Mangold drops us into the New York City folks scene of the early ’60s, following the rise of Bob Dylan, but in addition of different artists that formed the tradition, like Joan Baez (Monica Barbaro) and, after all, Pete Seeger. This all culminates on the Newport Folk Festival, the place Dylan — famously or infamously, relying in your perspective — determined he wished to eschew folks music for a extra rock sound, which each delighted and offended his followers, once more, relying in your perspective.
For his half, it’s fairly evident Norton beloved working with Mangold and compares him, usually, to the late Miloš Forman, whom Norton labored with on 1996’s “The People vs. Larry Flynt.” Norton was additionally stuffed with reward for his costar Chalamet as Bob Dylan (calling Chalamet “a subset of 1”), which is notable as a result of, over the course of his profession, Norton hasn’t precisely been timid when talking his thoughts. If he doesn’t really imagine one thing, he’s definitely not going to say it.
Norton hopes this is not going to simply spark extra curiosity in Dylan, but in addition Seeger, who Norton feels is fading from the identical cultural zeitgeist he was as soon as such an enormous drive inside. I argued that individuals do know Pete Seeger’s music, they only don’t notice it — he’s written quite a few very well-known songs made hits by different musical artists. But Norton shortly counters with a narrative about his buddy, director Spike Jonze, who assumed Norton was enjoying Bob Seger.
The following interview has been edited and condensed for size and readability.
IndieWire: I’ve by no means watched you play a personality fairly like this earlier than. But I don’t know in the event you agree with that.
Edward Norton: I don’t know, I believe Smoochy the Rhino and Pete Seeger have fairly plenty of issues in widespread as guitar gamers and mission-driven lefties. I’m not saying this in a great way, I by no means relate any position to every other position. I don’t really feel connectivity between nearly something. I get it, you do sure issues which can be in a sure gear like “American History X” or “twenty fifth Hour” or one thing, however to me, “The Painted Veil” or “Keeping the Faith” or enjoying Alan Isaacman in “Larry Flynt,” who’s very a lot the foil.
But I’ve definitely had my time in what I’d name “respectable individuals.” Or people who find themselves within the considerate aspect of the equation. But, to me, there’s no one like Pete Seeger. Nobody.
How so?
Timothée and I had a deeply shared, let’s name it, concern about the entire enterprise. The deeper your respect is for Dylan and Seeger and Joan Baez, in a manner it nearly begins to throw off this not possible commonplace of, why are we doing this? And I believe James Mangold was the power all of us wanted within the sense that his capability to articulate the “why” of the entire thing and to guarantee all people this isn’t about doing a color-by-numbers biopic about any of those individuals. It’s about trying on the messy collisions and paradoxes and multidimensional relationships that produced this wild, emergent cultural second.
And Jim [Mangold] was evaluating it to “Amadeus.” He was evaluating it to “Hair.” He was evaluating it to issues that have been so completely different from what I’d name biographical touchpoints that it began to get actually attention-grabbing for everyone. And I believe it liberated Timothée. It liberated me. Timothée and I talked about the truth that each of us have been realizing that we have been within the rabbit gap of aficionado analysis, however the general public we all know aren’t that immersed in Dylan’s music anymore. And definitely not Pete Seeger’s. You notice possibly it’s a possibility to place a lightweight on this era and the way wonderful these artists have been and get reconnected to them.
I may argue individuals are immersed in Pete Seeger’s music however they only don’t understand it.
Yes. But I’d say you’re within the slender membership of actual cultural erudition.
But everybody is aware of The Byrds’ model of “Turn! Turn! Turn!” It’s in “Forrest Gump,” which is on cable thrice a day.
I’m going to present you a humorous instance. Spike Jonze is a extremely good buddy of mine, and I advised him what I used to be doing, and he was like, “Wow, are you doing the music your self?” I stated sure. And he goes, “Are you doing ‘Night Moves’ and ‘Against the Wind’ and ‘Old Time Rock & Roll’?”
Oh, no. He thought you have been enjoying Bob Seger.
Yeah, I’m like, “Pete Seeger, not Bob Seger!” And he was like, “Wait, who’s Pete Seeger?” And I’m like, “Pete Seeger, the people singer! Not Bob Seger,” and we have been laughing and every little thing. I talked to Stephen Colbert. I did his present. He got here as much as me and stated, “There was a second the place I simply began weeping as a result of I so love and revere Pete Seeger.” If you possibly can see the portrait of people who find themselves aspiring to do one thing with their lives in several methods, you notice all of them set a typical of inventive aspiration that I form of suppose we’re getting a little bit extra distant from proper now. We are dangerously near the entire concept of inventive endeavor being consumed throughout the concept of content material as collateral. And the itemizing of it, breaking it up, brief kind, the clipping it out.
Looking at what Jim has truly made, as a complete piece, one of many issues I used to be moved by was the motion of an period … all of it was geared toward making an attempt to say stuff. It was geared toward making an attempt to drag a lever on the tradition a method or one other. And they did. For a interval, they did. It’s ironic, I don’t suppose superheroes in capes are literally going to reach and save us. They selected to take that power and lever it into the civil rights motion and the antiwar motion. And they raised the banner of their era and acquired individuals rallying round concepts. And it’s fairly heroic.
That kind of protest music appears gone proper now.
Yeah, you recognize, I believe David Bowie was proper again within the late ‘80s, observing that a few of the most culturally attention-grabbing music was hip-hop. When you had “The Message” and Public Enemy’s “Fight the Power,” there was a interval. We’ve had waves. It’s not just like the early ‘60s was the final time that you simply’ve seen political and culturally engaged commentary via music in any respect. But I do suppose proper now it’s a good query. Where is that?
When you talked about Spike Jonze complicated Bob Seger and Pete Seeger, keep in mind in 2006 when Springsteen did the “Seeger Sessions” tour? That identical factor occurred. Lots of people have been asking why Bruce Springsteen was celebrating the music of Bob Seger.
Oh, yeah, I went to the primary present. I drove all the way down to Asbury Park from New York to see opening night time of the “Seeger Sessions” tour in one of many outdated Asbury beachside auditoriums.
Oh yeah, Convention Hall.
Yeah, that’s the place he did it. I nonetheless have footage. And Bruce, to me, he’s 100%, no query by any means, the Pete Seeger of our era and our time. He’s the man who actually truly took up the mantle. Not simply clearly singing songs about working individuals, singing concerning the emotional and financial plight of working individuals and their struggles. But he additionally took up the flag of political engagement. Way greater than Dylan. And I’d argue greater than anybody, since Pete Seeger, Bruce Springsteen has been the troubadour of the working man and in addition an unapologetic deployer of music towards political progressive humanism. He’s a drive. And it’s no shock to me by any means he did a Seeger report like that as a result of Bruce has lengthy been one of many deacons within the Pete Seeger church.
Woody Guthrie writes “This Land Is Your Land,” which was the “Born within the USA” of its time. A seemingly patriotic track with a subversive message beneath, proper?
It was written as a response to “God Bless America.”
Totally. And reduce to 2009, and it’s very transferring to think about Pete and John Lewis and the others who have been a part of the early Civil Rights motion and made all of it the best way to see that second and take part in it.
I simply watched the clip of Seeger and Springsteen enjoying “This Land Is Your Land” on the inauguration.
He performs his buddy’s track with Bruce Springsteen on the inauguration of Obama! At age 90. It’s completely unbelievable, and transferring to me, that his life unfold that form of music as an instrument of change and he truly survived to see that second. It was freezing that day, keep in mind?
Yeah, it’s apparent watching the clip once more.
Bruce advised me he stored making an attempt to get Pete to placed on extra heat garments. Because in the event you see that, he’s simply sporting his flannel shirt. I’m undecided I must be quoted on this, however I believe Bruce advised me he stated one thing like, “You’ve acquired to place a coat on, Pete.” And Pete stated, “Nothing could make me chilly right this moment, Bruce. I’m lit up from the within.”
It’s attention-grabbing we’re discussing a movie about Bob Dylan, and when “Greetings from Asbury Park” got here out, Springsteen was being known as “the subsequent Dylan.” But as you stated, he extra embodies Pete Seeger.
Much extra so. But possibly a mix of each, in some sense. “Greetings” has “For You”…
“Mary Queen of Arkansas.”
There’s the reverence for Dylan’s lyricism for certain.
“Growing Up” can also be possibly instance of that.
Yeah, I believe within the whole measure of Bruce, as an artist, his ethos could be very related to Seeger’s.
They’re making a film about Bruce. I notice it’s about “Nebraska,” however you may additionally pop up in that as Pete Seeger.
[Laughs] I’m undecided how a lot “Nebraska” Bruce was interacting with Pete.
Look, I’ve been giving performances and appearing with different individuals for 30 years professionally, and longer earlier than. I’d put the zone Timothée was in on this proper up there within the higher ranks of what I’ve been round. He’s in such a deeply related, critical, immersive state. Having him be there, radiated outward to a dedication by all people to remain deeply invested in a sustained phantasm and a dedication to the phantasm whereas we have been doing it. I’m undecided how many individuals may or ought to even try to play Dylan.
In my very own view, he’s near a subset of 1 by way of who may or ought to have finished this at this explicit level. I can’t consider anyone else who would have pulled this off, and I believe he pulled it off. It’s a really daring factor to say you’re going to symbolize Bob Dylan. I do know Timothée, and I don’t see him in there. Things he’s going via — you recognize, the best way forces come at you whenever you begin to get well-known for one thing — is well-aligned along with his personal experiences proper now, however I believe he acquired about as misplaced in that half as you possibly can ever aspire to be as an actor and it was actually, actually cool.
That’s excessive reward from you. I don’t know you, however I do know your persona sufficient that you simply wouldn’t say that in the event you didn’t imply it.
I’ve plenty of pals in music and everybody I do know who has seen it — and I do know fairly just a few individuals who know Dylan who have been skeptical, telling me they have been disinclined to see it as a result of they didn’t suppose they’d be capable of let go and immerse — ended up strolling out in tears.
There’s a well-known second within the movie involving Pete Seeger allegedly desirous to take an ax to the facility provide when Dylan performed electrical on the Newport Folk Festival. I’ve learn so many accounts which can be all completely different sufficient this may very well be a “Rashomon” type second.
I’d say, to counter that, I believe the city fable of all of it got here out of informal feedback individuals made — and Dylan says it in Scorsese’s doc, “Someone advised me Pete Seeger tried to get an ax and that disturbed me vastly as a result of I revered him a lot.” I truly don’t suppose there’s that a lot “Rashomon,” I believe it’s fairly clear. Numerous individuals have stated, the explanation the ax factor might be in individuals’s head is the work group with its logs and its axes have been sitting offstage. Some individuals suppose he might need yelled, “Goddammit, if I had an ax I’d reduce the wire!,” however there’s not one single one that was there who has a shred of doubt about that by no means occurred. He by no means grabbed an ax.
But, on the identical time, even his daughter stated to me, it’s uncontestable he blew a gasket, and he acquired indignant in a manner she’s by no means seen him get indignant earlier than or since. He completely went on the board and tried to get them to take it down. [What’s in the film] could be very aligned with what individuals there shared with us and it feels emotionally true to me. It’s actually attention-grabbing, I spotted Jim and I have been each mentees of Miloš Forman. Miloš was his professor at Columbia and Miloš was the closest to a mentor I had from the “Larry Flynt” interval and ever after.
And you talked about “Amadeus” earlier.
Yeah! It’s actually humorous, I’ve labored for lots of nice administrators and stuff, the best way Jim approaches making a movie and the quantity of room he provides actors — at the same time as the author of the script –—he actually does say, “Go on the market and mine for gold. Bring me a lot extra Pete Seeger than I may ever use and throw all of it in there for me and belief me to type out the nuggets you discover me.” When somebody is assured as he’s, but in addition genuinely captivated with discovery? I believe motion pictures like this are actually deceptively onerous. In plenty of methods, I believe Miloš Forman was actually appreciated all the best way from “Fireman’s Ball,” and never simply via “Cuckoo’s Nest,” however “Hair” and “Ragtime” and “Larry Flynt.” Miloš was the king of the film that was cultural anthropology.
“Man on the Moon” is one other instance.
Yeah! Yes. He was so good at these movies. And I hadn’t had an expertise form of since then… I used to be very younger, however I keep in mind on “Larry Flynt” going, ‘The manner this man works, he’s so completely different from any manner I considered the way you make movie.’ Miloš was this man, he used to say to me, “It’s all casting and enhancing and, in-between, you’re simply gathering clay. It’s all simply uncooked materials. I’m nice at casting and I’m nice at sculpting.”
I actually really feel Jim Mangold. He additionally has Miloš’ lack of pretention about authorship. I believe we’re actually on this period the place we lionize the auteur, and Jim has this superbly unpretentious view of what directing is about. He’s very very like Miloš in that sense. It’s very completely different from the restricted model of authorship that I believe we’ve developed round making motion pictures. I discovered it so refreshing. I actually do suppose these form of plotless movies that you’ve the boldness to say I’m going to drop you thru a cultural second and immerse you in it, it’s form of ballsy. It’s ballsy to claim you possibly can maintain individuals and I really feel Jim has grown into being that form of Miloš Forman director.
It’s attention-grabbing you point out the casting and the sculpting. I simply rewatched “Copland,” and James Mangold does an ideal job doing that and getting these nice performances — clearly, that’s early in his profession.
Yeah! And it’s not like Jim isn’t one of the profitable administrators in Hollywood, however the best way he’s good, it’s not the hyper-controlled, OCD, micro-managerial definition of auteurship that we’ve form of acquired. I believe he comes out of this faculty that I name the Miloš Forman faculty. For me, that’s why I’m a commit of Miloš’ movies from “Fireman’s Ball” on. You take a look at it and say, how is that this working so nicely? What is occurring right here? How is he capable of arrange very non-expositional eventualities and also you’re so delighted by them? It’s a form of alchemy that’s, not tougher, every little thing is its personal factor, however I really feel like, on this one, he actually hit a brand new excessive bar. I’d put this movie in there with these Miloš movies.
Searchlight Pictures will launch “A Complete Unknown” in theaters on Wednesday, December 25.
